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  #1  
Old 06-10-2003, 05:29 PM
Lindsey818
 
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Default Tattooing?

I have had 11 laser treatments on my PWS on my arm and there is no change! I am DESPERATE for something and lately I have been thinking about tattooing. Can anyone help me? Any doctors in Minnesota? Thank you!
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  #2  
Old 06-10-2003, 07:43 PM
Jerry
 
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Default Re:Tattooing?

Hi,

Sorry but I can not help you with any docters in Minn. as I am from Europe.

Am wondering though what kind of laser treatment did you get . I have got PWSs on both legs and am about to start a laser treatment (intense light pulse). Hopefully we can exchange some experience.

Talk to you later,
Jerry
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  #3  
Old 06-11-2003, 06:15 PM
Lindsey818
 
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Default Re:Tattooing?

I have had several types of laser treatment, there was barely any lightening, and I ended up with some pretty nasty scarring.
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  #4  
Old 04-02-2005, 06:56 PM
swsc's Avatar
swsc swsc is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 95
Default Re: Tattooing?

Rebecca:

I hope you don't mind my asking questions, but my grandson has PWS and we have always been advised against tattooing.

I couldn't find any information about this procedure on your website. You state that this is "experimental in nature" and that "hundreds of these procedures have been performed with postivie outcome". Could you please provide some documentation on this, and are there any before/after photos?

Regarding this "process of bleeding out the capillaries", are there any dangers accociated with it - like excessive bleeding, infection, scarring, etc. What procedures are in place to ensure the health and safetly of patients?

Is there any qualified physician in the field of vascular birthmarks who would recommend this procedure?

Why would this procedure be preferable to laser treatments? Is it safer than laser treatments and proven more effective? How long do the effefcts last? Does it work for all PWS - and if not - why? What type of anesthetic is used? What procedures are Paramedical Aestheticians allowed to perform? How many of these procedures have you performed?

Thanks for your patience and understanding in this matter. As this is an experimental procedure, I would need some reassurance that this is a safe and effective form of treatment.

Sincerely,
Glenda

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  #5  
Old 04-02-2005, 11:23 PM
PresidentVBF
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Tattooing?

Dear VBF Discussion Forum Readers...I am the President and Founder of VBF, Linda Rozell-Shannon. I rarely JUMP INTO a discussion and cast my professional opinion upon a topic, but when the potential outcome can be harmful, I have to intervene. Let me enlighten you on several issues brought up by "rcordiano" regarding Tatooing and Port Wine Stains.

1) This is not new. Tatooing of a port wine stain has been around for years.
2) Tatooing does not "bleed out the capillaries".
3) There has not been a 10 year history of collecting pre and post tatooing treatments to make a solid medical recommendation on the positive use of tatooing.
4) Tatooing consists of a series of repetitive skin punctures that inject color pigment into the upper layers of the skin. The pigment is injected into the skin to a dpeth of about one to two millimeters by an electrical powered tatoo gun. Some bleeding can occur from the skin surface of the puncture sites and it can feel like a sunburn. There are concerns about infection from unclean needles and the transmission of Hepatitis related viruses from the contaminated needles. This is a serious concern when you go to a tatoo parlor. If anyone decides on a tatoo, you need to ask the parlor about their infection control policies, are the needles disposable, is the equipment sterilized after each use. OK, enough about tatoos.
5) We know that there are 4 grades of PWS (Grade I are the earliest lesions and thus have the smallest diameter vessels and grade IV are the most advanced), we know that the higher the grade, the more difficult to treat as the vessels are deep and the lasers do not reach them.
5) We know that a laser typically reaches about the same depth as the tatoo needles, or about 1-2 millimeters...that's all they have in common.
6) A laser is thermal. It selects the red vessels and cooks the blood to a boiling point and thereby evaporates the blood so that the vessel collapses to a more normal size (a port wine stain or any vascular stain has enlarged blood vessels). Some lasers reach deeper than others and new technology is enabling an even "deeper" reach to occur. We'll learn about this new technology at our PWS conference in Irvin, Ca. this October.
7) The Port Wine Stain itself "grows" by a deficiency in the nervous system. Our nervous system regulates the constriction and dialation of our blood vessels. The "sick" area where the stain is has a faulty signal so more blood goes in than go out. There is much debate over whether treating with a laser is a permanent or temporary solution. All agree, however, in that the laser treats the stain, but not the nervous system deficiency. The "dis-ease" is still there. Why some say they can be "cured" is because the new laser and treatments of the more superficial stains (Grade I) seem to have a long, long clearance time. This may be "cure" and in time we will know when there has been a history of 10 or more years of no new recurrence. For now, we will say that "most" people have a port wine stain that will return in time, even after many laser treatments because most stains are Grade II, III or IV.
8) So, let's get back to the tatoo process. You have a red birthmark. You inject flesh color die into the vessel. For a time, you could have a good result. However, I will tell you this as a former art major, matching skin colors is very difficult and in time, when the vessel begins to fill back up with blood, even a tiny bit of "new pink" will change the color of the flesh tone used by the tatoo artist...that's why he is seeing a "salmon" color even if he uses a pale beige skin tone...think of mixing the two colors. Most laser treatments keep the skin clear for up to 2 years. I would suspect the tatoo would look good for one to two years at the most, and that would depend again on the grade of the stain. The higher the grade, the quicker the return of the blood.
9) With most grades of PWS in time, there is a thickening of the skin and a cobbleing can occur with small blueberry type blebs popping up. The tatoo won't stop that, prevent it or even delay it. As a matter of fact, and I say this again as a former art major, your skin will look worse as a bubbling salmon color than as a birthmark color.
10) Tatooing cannot cure a PWS and it cannot make it go away and it does not "bleed out" the capillaries in any way. The bleeding that occurs from a tatoo is normal bleeding from puncturing the skin with a needle. It is not "removing" the PWS. I caution anyone against making such a testimony without a medical doctor who has published on this subject to back up that statement.
11) If someone has a very pale, Grade I, PWS then that PWS would respond very well to pulse dye laser. It could even be virtually gone and that person would need a treatment here and there to keep a "clean" appearance. That same grade of a PWS is the only grade that would look even remotely normal for tatooing (as the skin would be smooth and not cobbled) and therefore MAY be a candidate). But, why would you inject a die into a vessel (ok, so now you have an increase in blood flow and a colored die) when you could have a laser treatment that would constrict the vessel through a thermal process and you would not risk contracting a virus from unclean needles.
12) The woman who had the tatoo on her back tatooed, well, if it is a Grade II, III or IV...you are going to have a mess on your hands as the vessels begin to refill in time and the flesh color mixes with the new blood color and you will have a salmon or orange colored stain on your back.
13) Tatooing can interfere with normal good results from an aggessive pulse dye laser treatment.
14) Remember the skin on the back is different from the skin on the face. Be very careful in taking a statement about what is good for one area as being good for another.
15) Many states have prohibitions agains Cosmetologists from using tatooing and it is not regulated in any states. Be very careful.
16) I am very emphatic that NO ONE advertise on my website to sell a service. This is prohibited by our charitable status. As a result, if anyone soliciting to give free tatooing does not refrain from posting such a note again, they will face legal action.
17) Listen everyone, DO NOT undergo any treatment of a PWS without consulting with one of our birthmark physicians or experts.

Lastly, I have nothing against tatooing. I think it has its place and it makes a statement. What I do forbid, is anyone to post a note about a treatment for a PWS that is not medical, that has not gotten my permission to publish such a statement and that is not licensed or regulated by the medical community, and lastly that solicits providing a service on a charitable website. Even "free" treatments are prohibited without a medical review and my permission.

Sorry to be so tough, but my families affected by a birthmark are my priority.

Consumer....BEWARE!!!

Linda Rozell-Shannon
VBF President/Founder
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2005, 09:41 PM
juliemn juliemn is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 95
Default Re: Tattooing?

Well written Linda.

As to the initial question from Lindsey?

I, too live in Minnesota. My son Benjamin sees a very good dermatologist for laser treatments. I know of several other families that use a couple of different doctors for laser treatments with good results.

If you'd like to email me, I'd be happy to discuss our choice of doctor with you. We too have had some frustrating laser results that initiated a search for a new doctor.

Julie
(mom to 3 year old Ben)
boges1@sherbtel.net
__________________
Julie H
Mom to Ben (multiple AVM's, PWS, SWS)
www.MeetBen.com
jshiggie@gmail.com
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  #7  
Old 04-18-2005, 06:02 PM
rcordiano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Tattooing?

Please understand my intention was to only share a story of positive outcome on tattooing PWS. I never claimed to be an expert and I always advise a doctor's written okay to recieve any treatment that is not strictly cosmetic.
Just to give some info that I have recently learned by delving farther into this- this has been around in the medical community for over a decade the first documented treatments were done at John Hopkins University. It has not however, been a documented procedure in the tattoo community it is new to most technicians.
Although you are right about a few things, let me clarify others. No pigment is necessary in these procedures to get a good outcome. It does bleed out the cappillaries because they are surface cappillaries in PWS unlike regular skin. Which is what caused the purple and blue tones of a PWS. You have more bleeding in tattooing PWS because of this. I have spoken to several of the plastic surgeons in Dnever that I myself are affiliated with.
I have since done more research, out my own interst and have spoken to a few people on my personal email on their own experiences with tattooing PWS. One man had this done and the results lasted 10 yrs. Most last in the 2-5 yr range.
In the long run, I wanted to let people know that there are cheaper alternatives to Laser. It is a procedure that is more cost effective to those who cannot afford lsaer treatments.
Again my intention was not to come off as an expert, but to share some info that was new to me, and I thought would be interesting to others. By no means was I advertising myself.
If you read closer as well, I was the one who was treated on my back for a PWS that covers about 75% of my back. My PWS is lighter from the tattooing and no pigment was used in my treatment. I was speaking from personal experience as someone who has suffered with PWS.
I understand your concern for your readers. However, we all should not jump to conclusions about people's intentions. This is obviously a treatment we should all research more closely.
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  #8  
Old 04-18-2005, 08:04 PM
RIVKA
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Tattooing?

I am a Chemist and a biologist with a strong backround in physiology and biochem.

Have you ever wondered WHY doctors must use lasers rather than traditonal surgical proceedures for these anomalies???????(HINT)

These areas are highly vascular and cannot be performed safely(due to excess bleeding from increased vascularization of the affected areas).
Infection is another consideration, but secondary to excessive bleeding.

There is not documented research from Johns Hopkins : > regarding tattooing of pws patients in the affected areas). And it is my understanding the most reputable surgeons advise against this.


Also, I really resent > > > you posting about this matter again, as you were already admonished for advertising here by the Founder, Linda Shannon. Stop doing this, as you are only causing false hope, and you are potentially putting patients that are already at risk in potential danger! These patients are already at high risk, and you have NO business sending them into a direction which would harm them further!

I would strongly advise ALL PWS/SWS and patients w/ h or AVM to go to the "Ask a Physician" page on this website and pose any questions you may have on this subject to Dr. Hochman. Otherwise, post your questions to Linda Shannon. She has conducted extensive research(and also has published papers and books) concerning the aforementioned conditions.

rcordiano, refer to Linda's post. Then go away. You have no business advertising on this board, particularily when you were admonished NOT to do so! > :


------------------------------------------------------------

PresidentVBF
FOUNDER!!!!!!




Re: Tattooing?
Reply #4 on: April 02, 2005, 06:23:47 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear VBF Discussion Forum Readers...I am the President and Founder of VBF, Linda Rozell-Shannon. I rarely JUMP INTO a discussion and cast my professional opinion upon a topic, but when the potential outcome can be harmful, I have to intervene. Let me enlighten you on several issues brought up by "rcordiano" regarding Tatooing and Port Wine Stains.

1) This is not new. Tatooing of a port wine stain has been around for years.
2) Tatooing does not "bleed out the capillaries".
3) There has not been a 10 year history of collecting pre and post tatooing treatments to make a solid medical recommendation on the positive use of tatooing.
4) Tatooing consists of a series of repetitive skin punctures that inject color pigment into the upper layers of the skin. The pigment is injected into the skin to a dpeth of about one to two millimeters by an electrical powered tatoo gun. Some bleeding can occur from the skin surface of the puncture sites and it can feel like a sunburn. There are concerns about infection from unclean needles and the transmission of Hepatitis related viruses from the contaminated needles. This is a serious concern when you go to a tatoo parlor. If anyone decides on a tatoo, you need to ask the parlor about their infection control policies, are the needles disposable, is the equipment sterilized after each use. OK, enough about tatoos.
5) We know that there are 4 grades of PWS (Grade I are the earliest lesions and thus have the smallest diameter vessels and grade IV are the most advanced), we know that the higher the grade, the more difficult to treat as the vessels are deep and the lasers do not reach them.
5) We know that a laser typically reaches about the same depth as the tatoo needles, or about 1-2 millimeters...that's all they have in common.
6) A laser is thermal. It selects the red vessels and cooks the blood to a boiling point and thereby evaporates the blood so that the vessel collapses to a more normal size (a port wine stain or any vascular stain has enlarged blood vessels). Some lasers reach deeper than others and new technology is enabling an even "deeper" reach to occur. We'll learn about this new technology at our PWS conference in Irvin, Ca. this October.
7) The Port Wine Stain itself "grows" by a deficiency in the nervous system. Our nervous system regulates the constriction and dialation of our blood vessels. The "sick" area where the stain is has a faulty signal so more blood goes in than go out. There is much debate over whether treating with a laser is a permanent or temporary solution. All agree, however, in that the laser treats the stain, but not the nervous system deficiency. The "dis-ease" is still there. Why some say they can be "cured" is because the new laser and treatments of the more superficial stains (Grade I) seem to have a long, long clearance time. This may be "cure" and in time we will know when there has been a history of 10 or more years of no new recurrence. For now, we will say that "most" people have a port wine stain that will return in time, even after many laser treatments because most stains are Grade II, III or IV.
So, let's get back to the tatoo process. You have a red birthmark. You inject flesh color die into the vessel. For a time, you could have a good result. However, I will tell you this as a former art major, matching skin colors is very difficult and in time, when the vessel begins to fill back up with blood, even a tiny bit of "new pink" will change the color of the flesh tone used by the tatoo artist...that's why he is seeing a "salmon" color even if he uses a pale beige skin tone...think of mixing the two colors. Most laser treatments keep the skin clear for up to 2 years. I would suspect the tatoo would look good for one to two years at the most, and that would depend again on the grade of the stain. The higher the grade, the quicker the return of the blood.
9) With most grades of PWS in time, there is a thickening of the skin and a cobbleing can occur with small blueberry type blebs popping up. The tatoo won't stop that, prevent it or even delay it. As a matter of fact, and I say this again as a former art major, your skin will look worse as a bubbling salmon color than as a birthmark color.
10) Tatooing cannot cure a PWS and it cannot make it go away and it does not "bleed out" the capillaries in any way. The bleeding that occurs from a tatoo is normal bleeding from puncturing the skin with a needle. It is not "removing" the PWS. I caution anyone against making such a testimony without a medical doctor who has published on this subject to back up that statement.
11) If someone has a very pale, Grade I, PWS then that PWS would respond very well to pulse dye laser. It could even be virtually gone and that person would need a treatment here and there to keep a "clean" appearance. That same grade of a PWS is the only grade that would look even remotely normal for tatooing (as the skin would be smooth and not cobbled) and therefore MAY be a candidate). But, why would you inject a die into a vessel (ok, so now you have an increase in blood flow and a colored die) when you could have a laser treatment that would constrict the vessel through a thermal process and you would not risk contracting a virus from unclean needles.
12) The woman who had the tatoo on her back tatooed, well, if it is a Grade II, III or IV...you are going to have a mess on your hands as the vessels begin to refill in time and the flesh color mixes with the new blood color and you will have a salmon or orange colored stain on your back.
13) Tatooing can interfere with normal good results from an aggessive pulse dye laser treatment.
14) Remember the skin on the back is different from the skin on the face. Be very careful in taking a statement about what is good for one area as being good for another.
15) Many states have prohibitions agains Cosmetologists from using tatooing and it is not regulated in any states. Be very careful.
16) I am very emphatic that NO ONE advertise on my website to sell a service. This is prohibited by our charitable status. As a result, if anyone soliciting to give free tatooing does not refrain from posting such a note again, they will face legal action.
17) Listen everyone, DO NOT undergo any treatment of a PWS without consulting with one of our birthmark physicians or experts.

Lastly, I have nothing against tatooing. I think it has its place and it makes a statement. What I do forbid, is anyone to post a note about a treatment for a PWS that is not medical, that has not gotten my permission to publish such a statement and that is not licensed or regulated by the medical community, and lastly that solicits providing a service on a charitable website. Even "free" treatments are prohibited without a medical review and my permission.

Sorry to be so tough, but my families affected by a birthmark are my priority.

Consumer....BEWARE!!!

Linda Rozell-Shannon
VBF President/Founder


----------------------------------------------------------------
Beware of what you don't know. It CAN hurt you!

Rivka
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2005, 04:01 PM
hankbartenbach hankbartenbach is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 538
Default Re: Tattooing?

Hi rcordiano,

I have talked to you befoe. I would like to here how PWS has effected you growing up. (before you had the work done) I can relate with you, growing up was difficult with school, and friends. I have PWS on my face and crown.
If you want you can email me directly or post your story in the teen and youth section.

I will talk to you soon.

Hank
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